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Regionalism would emasculate England

5 - 12 - 2007
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Gareth Young (Lewes, CEP): It seems that the renewed furore over the Barnett Formula and the West Lothian Question has emboldened regionalists who are now popping out of the woodwork to reassert their claims, despite the fact that the Barnett Formula doesn't actually have any bearing on funding disparities within England and the WLQ wouldn't be answered by regional assemblies. Most notable are Phil Davis in the Guardian and Sue Stirling on these very pages. I was shocked to see that Phil signed off his Guardian article by informing us that he 'chairs the Campaign for the English Regions'. Shocked because I thought we'd buried that particular organisation when we were victorious in the North East referendum, so I emailed Phil who told me:

Since a period of dormancy following the NE vote CFER officers have kept in touch. As the political context has now opened up to further work on empowered regions we are now considering relaunching the network - though regional activity outside the north has continued in any case via for example the West Midlands Constitutional Convention and SW CC

Understanding the nature of the beast he was replying to he continued:

Nationalism is not an ideology, but a disease (of the soul)...Hope you recover

Of course I did not bother to reply but had I done so I would have pointed out that such a statement shows contempt not just for the Scots and Welsh - who have recently voted for national government of their own - but also for the majority of the world's population who elect their government along national lines. For all their supposedly good intentions it is a fundamental weakness of the regionalists' argument that they seek to deny national government, and constitutional recognition of nationhood, to the people of England; to see England alone amongst the historic nations of Europe without its own national government. Earlier in the year I ran a short internet survey from my website (BiteBack.pdf) that asked respondents to agree or disagree with various statements. The largest affirmative response was to a statement cribbed from the openDemocracy website:

A contract of trust between citizens and politicians on a defined national community -- we can elect you, we can remove you -- is fundamental to a democracy

97% of those that took part agreed with that statement. A paltry 1% disagreed. The complete disregard that the regionalists have for the sense of English nationhood and feeling of national community was demonstrated most shockingly by Liberal democrat Councillor Peter Arnold who claimed, in a letter to the Independent, that "There is no need for an English parliament because there is no England". Even Regions Minister Nick Raynsford got in on the act when he claimed that the situation in England is different "because Scotland is a nation in its own right and similarly Wales". I am absolutely convinced that the majority of people in England believe that England is a nation in its own right, and I'm equally convinced that the regionalists will fail to federalise England if they attempt to do so at the expense of English national government - which, so far, is all they have attempted to do. Writing for the Constitution Unit in the aftermath of the north east referendum result the Guardian's Peter Hetherington remarked that

the romantic stirrings of Yes 4 the North East failed to resonate among a population that is probably more English - rather than British, with vague notions of Englishness - than many realise. One of the authors was struck by the number of times respondents in straw polls raised worries about the impact a partly-devolved North East would have on the unity of England

It's often said that the British are not particularly taken with overt displays of nationalism. That may have been true in the past but in recent times the Scots and Welsh (and Cornish, why not?) have shown themselves to be very adept at nationalist tub-thumping and flag-flapping. Belatedly the English are catching up and a reactionary British nationalism led by Gordon Brown is emerging in response to the threat as they see it. These British nationalists tend to favour the emasculation of England as a nation through regionalism, and Gordon Brown himself has argued that Britain should become 'a Britain of nations and regions'. Not on my watch Gordon. If Scotland has the sovereign right to determine the form of government best suited to its needs then so too does England, and it's that English nationalist claim that regionalists opposed to English constitutional sovereignty are going to encounter with even greater force than they did when we crushed them last back in 2004.

 

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Paul Kingsnorth (not verified) said:

Sun, 2007-12-09 22:01

I don't want to be rude, but I think Peter has sort of lost it ...

M ANDERSON (not verified) said:

Tue, 2007-12-11 05:31

dec 10th 8 44 am

regionalism emasculation

Peter Davidson wrote: “As I have explained elsewhere (see the comments flowing from my article) I would be more than happy for the English Electorate to have a real choice in this matter. That plebiscite could be conducted simultaneously across all English Regions and thus by default across England as a whole.”

There's only one thing "flowing" from you davidson and it aint anything nice you muppet!

davidson:

"I would be more than happy for the English to have a real choice..."

Firstly, it aint for you to decide. Secondly, you are lying!

Davidson:

"I have to laugh when you talk about democracy and good governance. Those particular attributes will recede rather quickly under any English Parliament constitutional settlement."

Ha! ha! I see you've given up the pretense of trying to hide behind the fabricated "regions" rubbish. Ha! ha!

Now we see your true sentiments davidson. I saw through you immediately. No doubt everyone else did to.

I am so glad to see that you have managed to work yourself up into such a tizzy that you have now blown your cover so to speak. Ha! ha! Other than that, it's the same boring old crap from the anti-English! Nothing original. *Yawn*

This is the type of crap im talking about:

"Coming closer to home it is in fact the Welsh and their Cornish cousins who have a stronger claim to what is now called England. The word Wales is derived from the old English/Norse term for outsider. They were the indigenous peoples of England, not the Anglo-Saxon invaders who pushed them out, from whom you and I areM Anderson, on December 10th, 2007 at 8:44 am Said: Your comment is awaiting moderation. M Anderson, on December 10th, 2007 at 8:44 am Said: Your comment is awaiting moderation. probably both descended (although I have a fair sprinkling of Celtic ancestry in my family history). However, I am sure we could bandy the veracity of historical claims all day"

Yeah and don't tell me they built Stonehenge to right? No, "they" didnt. Whilst we're on the subject of "the welsh" didnt you say wales come from the Saxon name for coward? Yeah of course it does so there is no wales then! It's just some derogatory name the Saxons made up. So what you going on about then?

England on the other hand, is named after the Angles and IS the name of a people that are alive today. I am one of their descendents! "Cornish cousins"? ha! ha! A survey done about 3 years ago said that most of "the cornish" were of Anglo Saxon blood mate. And another thing, the so-called "celts" used the same language that's all. There was several groups who fled to the land named by the Romans, i.e. Britannia NOT JUST ONE.

Oh yeah I suppose you'd call Pakistanis born in Pakistan, but living in England, English just because they speak English right? That's what happened with the so-called keltoi pal! They spoke the same language, well no infact they used more than one language, but they definitely were not ethnically/racially the same. And there were people here before them, The beaker folk! The Beaker folk were indigenous! You know, the people who built stonehenge!

Davidson:

"English Nationalists make the fundamental error of conflating England into a distinct yet seamless socio-political entity. Their entire raison d’etre flows from that basic premise. The sad truth for English Nationalists is that this notion is entirely illusory, pure bunkem. As a result the outpourings from English Nationalist circles are permeated with persistent references to the apparent right of the English to this, that and the other as though all English people want exactly the same thing - they don’t.

When you begin to accept that reality, you will perceive the potential for alternative perspectives"

Oh I see, you're angry because we wont shut up. Unfortunately for you, you do not decide the agenda. I say unfortunately for you because it's obvious that you are one of those people who think they have a god given right to demand everything their way. I almost feel sorry for you. Sometimes when i'm sitting thinking I wonder what it's like being bitter. What is it like? Actually, what's it like being small minded? I know you can tell me.

The English have as much right to "this and that" as any other ethnic group mate! We aint going anywhere.

When you begin to accept that reality, you will perceive the potential for alternative perspectives.

Know what I mean like?

Oh and please do come out with some more "history". I love pulling it to pieces!

Peter Davidson (not verified) said:

Fri, 2007-12-07 13:41

secretperson

You are playing games with semantics

I did not say that it is purely a numbers game. Numbers are important in terms of delivering effective solutions of governance but they are not the whole picture - you can infer that if you like but that was not what I said.

There is a very complex set of forces at work here. The smaller nations making up Europe actually pre-date the johnny come lately newcomers called Nation-States we see today. The Nation-State as we recognise it today originated out of the Peace of Westfalia Treat signed in 1648 between the colonial powers of the period.

Let's take Sweden as an example. Sweden assimilated (technical word to cover such niceties as conquest, subjugation and ethnic cleansing) what was known originally as Scania around this period. Sweden as a Nation-State has subsequently, over the interceding 300 odd year period, obliterated virtually all traces of Scanian culture. The Skanes can trace their history back over 1000 years.

Therefore if we are going to invoke historical precedent it is small national communities like these across Europe pre-dating relatively modern Nation-States, which have a prior claim to the self-determination you so vociferously champion. Coming closer to home it is in fact the Welsh and their Cornish cousins who have a stronger claim to what is now called England. The word Wales is derived from the old English/Norse term for outsider. They were the indigenous peoples of England, not the Anglo-Saxon invaders who pushed them out, from whom you and I are probably both descended (although I have a fair sprinkling of Celtic ancestry in my family history). However, I am sure we could bandy the veracity of historical claims all day.

English Nationalists make the fundamental error of conflating England into a distinct yet seamless socio-political entity. Their entire raison d'etre flows from that basic premise. The sad truth for English Nationalists is that this notion is entirely illusory, pure bunkem. As a result the outpourings from English Nationalist circles are permeated with persistent references to the apparent right of the English to this, that and the other as though all English people want exactly the same thing - they don't.

When you begin to accept that reality, you will perceive the potential for alternative perspectives.

To return to the point at issue here, the complexity of this issue revolves around an unfathomable blend of history, geography, culture (language plays a big part here) and even religion.

Nobody is drawing straight lines anywhere. You will see that I replied to Philip Hoskins about how a more relevant English Regional map might be arrived at. What I do know is that England is simply to big to function effectively as a single unit. In a devolved constitutional settlement it is England that would function as the extra tier of governance sitting on top of a Regional array of smaller more relevant geo-political. It woud serve to cement an already entreched culture of power centralisation endemic within its current UK counterpart.

The fact is that English Nationalists have no intention of devolving or transferring significant power. They talk about reinforcing the link to old counties but what they mean is just replicating the same structure currently endured in England (outside London). I don't want that and I believe that the vast majority of ordinary people (not fixated on some illusory notion of English homgeneity) will share my viewpoint if they understand the full implications of following an English Parliament route to a constitutional settlement.

Peter Davidson (not verified) said:

Thu, 2007-12-06 17:30

Gareth

Don't change the question to suit your answer

I used the word "extra" which you have conveniently dropped from your reply

secretperson (not verified) said:

Fri, 2007-12-07 11:43

Well if the only requirement is dropping tiers of government (and less governement is often good) I vote for England + counties. Right that's the last of ridiculous games involving formulas!

Peter

Only colonialists draw straight lines on a map for the convenience of ruling. That is what EU regionalisation does. This practice under European colonisers causes problems in Africa to this day, why not just let people associate with natural common identity groups.

You mention size of nations. People are more than a number to be distributed easily, they have identities which matter to them. Why is Germany more stable than Belgium (which could well break up). Belgium is not bigger, but it does contain two distinct national groups with national identities. Inconvenient though it is for the ruling class, this is how people think, you cannot arbitrarily package them up for the convenience of our 'betters'.

I second Gareth though at least you are honest and believe in what you say, even if I profoundly disagree.

Peter Davidson (not verified) said:

Fri, 2007-12-07 09:52

Gareth

There will always be a European perspective to the governance of the UK (and by default England) as an integral element of any constitutional settlement, despite your delusion about its relevance. You may claim that my statement about the unavoidable linkage between mainland Europe and the UK was facile but any atlas demonstrates the crass nature of your remark. Unless, of course, you are intending to have the British Isles towed across the Atlantic, the ingenuity and scheming of CEP knows no bounds?

The European perspective is kept firmly under wraps by CEP (but it is always there for anyone who looks closely) because they have a long term isolationist strategy for England. The first stage is to establish a political and constitutional platform to break up the United Kingdom. As surely as day follows night, the second stage involves an independent (whatever that means in our interdependent and interconnected world) England's exit from the EU.

In this nightmarish future, there will be no effective devolution of any power whatsoever. For the millions living in the English peripheries there will be no discernible change. It will be business as usual with a new name over the door. Centralisation of power will continue and those living outside London/SE will rue the day they ever listened to the siren voices emanating from your populist platform.

I have to laugh when you talk about democracy and good governance. Those particular attributes will recede rather quickly under any English Parliament constitutional settlement.

I'll be interested to see how many votes English Nationalist candidates receive during the London Mayor elections. A true test of your popular credentials.

Gareth Young (Brighton) (not verified) said:

Fri, 2007-12-07 12:55

You are wrong about the CEP but it doesn't really bother me what you believe. I'm not opposed to the EU per se, but I am opposed to your 'Europe of the Regions' so if you're looking for lines in the sand then I think it's safe for you to assume that practically everyone in the CEP will be on the other side of the line to yourself.

But then you can assume the same about most of the UK population so I wouldn't read too much into it.

Contrary to popular belief not everyone who is an English nationalist is rabidly anti-EU (that tends to be more your British nationalist Tory/UKIPer). Though you would expect nationalists to believe in an EU of Nations rather than an EU of Regions would you not?

You have done us a favour Peter. This thread will be used as a reference point, a demonstration of what drives regionalists.

Gareth Young (Brighton) (not verified) said:

Fri, 2007-12-07 13:03

I’ll be interested to see how many votes English Nationalist candidates receive during the London Mayor elections. A true test of your popular credentials.

Just for clarification this has nothing to do with the CEP. We are not a political party. I am not, never have been, and never will be, a member of the English Democrats.

The reason I'm a member of the CEP and not the EDP is because the case for an English parliament stands alone regardless of ones views on immigration, the EU, policing, taxation, the price of fish, etc.

I don't expect English nationalist candidates to do well in the London elections but I don't think that really tells us anything because people aren't voting on a single-issue.

Stephen Gash (not verified) said:

Wed, 2007-12-05 17:14

The only reason England is to be balkanised is for the sake of the United Kingdom. I doubt if it would even have been discussed if England were an independent country.

The honest way to have regionalised the UK would be for Wales and Scotland to disappear into Euro-regions alongwith England, but the Welsh and Scots woudn't have it. The English won't have it either, especially based on regional borders gerrymandered to suit Nu Labor.

If England is bust up into reviled regions and then Wales and Scotland decide to be independent, where does that leave the English? Stateless and powerless.

Gareth (Brighton) (not verified) said:

Sat, 2007-12-08 19:51

Peter, you seem to be suggesting that there is a contradiction between Paul's statement and mine. There isn't.

Peter Davidson (not verified) said:

Sat, 2007-12-08 10:56

Paul Kingsnorth: "Whoever said the English people ‘all want the same thing’? Duh. Of course they don’t."

Gareth (Brighton): "The English should decide how they wish to be governed"

Paul, I'd have a word with Gareth if I were you

secretperson (not verified) said:

Sat, 2007-12-08 11:53

Peter: "Paul, I’d have a word with Gareth if I were you"

Having a democratic right to make a decision does not equal wanting the same thing. Will all the people in your regions want the same thing? No. Do they still have the right to decide, democratically on the form of their government?

Well that one is up to you I'm afraid.

Peter Davidson (not verified) said:

Thu, 2007-12-06 16:37

Richard

Thanks for your comments

The problem for England (something that cannot be avoided) is that is simply too big to administer effectively.

England as a single unitary entity (and experience should be enough evidence to demonstrate the veracity of my claim) cannot deliver effective homongeneous governance.

Yes, of course there are debates to be had around the margins of this principle. Is North Wales the same as South Wales? Are the Highland and Islands the same as the Scottish Lowlands. The answer is, of course not, but there are degrees of uniformity and in this context size does matter.

The UK is still relatively centralised in terms of its constitutional nature. It is misleading to claim that "following devolution the UK government is in fact the English government in many areas of policy" because the UK government retains effective control via its dominance of the revenue chain. For example the Welsh Assembly cannot pass legislation at present (although that might change in the future) and raising revenues is a no-go area.

Devolution sounds good in theory but in practice the real master of events still resides in Whitehall. Until devolved institutions of governance assume financial competency, they cannot consider themselves masters of their own destiny. Westminster seems very loathe to transfer that power at present because they know it will signal a one-way street of increased pressure for further transfers of competency.

Some might argue that this is because politicians intrinsically thirst for power (there is a lot of truth in that) but the counter argument is that demands for more autonomy/self-determination are driven from below. Individual people want more control over those issues that matter in their everyday lives: healthcare, education, law & order, housing, transport, etc.

If England establishes its own Parliament, the exact same centralising mindset present in the current UK version will transfer to the new institutions of governance; it will be exactly the same, with a different name on the door. How will that outcome serve the best interests of already marginalised English peripheral Regions?

This is why I argue for real transfer of power to closer more immediate tiers of governance. In addition an array of semi-autonomous financially self-sufficient English Regions to complement devolved entities like Wales, Scotland, N. Ireland and Greater London would create the foundations for a federal constitutional UK arrangement based on a partnership of equals, not a structure skewed by one massive partner dominating the interests of all participants (including Wales).

Peter Davidson (not verified) said:

Wed, 2007-12-05 15:35

Gareth Young: "Because regional assemblies are unwanted and English government is wanted. Simple answer to a simple question.

And so we come full circle. It is simply not good enough to repeat parrot fashion the same tired old cliche.

Ask the question: "Why is the concept of English Regional Devolution now less popular and the idea of an English Parliament now more popular that was previously the case"

And how about examining the entire issue rather than just settling for glib easy answers?

I have attempted to demonstrate, in a coherently argued and chronological order, the sequence of events and contributory factors leading to the overwhelmingly negative NE. Assembly referendum result. I have also highlighted how support for English Regions was strong (stronger than that for an English Parliament) until the UK government poisoned that particular well of public goodwill.

Unsurprinsingly you (and others) seem unwilling to listen to any argument and evidence presented does not fit with your blind rush towards a single dogma driven goal.

There are none so deaf as those who will not hear?

Peter Davidson (not verified) said:

Wed, 2007-12-05 15:39

Oh and by the way Gareth - how about answering the question?

Gareth Young (Brighton) (not verified) said:

Thu, 2007-12-06 16:27

I answered your question - I don't think an English parliament is an unwanted tier of extra government. I think regions are. I don't see how I can answer it any more fully than that.

The CEP have the interests of England and the English people at heart, your raison d'etre is the pursuit of a Europe of the Regions, we'll see whose preference the people of England prefer.

It is you who is disingenuous, you're a wolf in sheep's clothing bleating on about 'devolution' and 'power to the people' when what you're really interested in doing is EU state building through the destruction of Europe's historic nations.

I believe that the people living this side of the Atlantic are intrinsically bound to those living on the other side (just thought I'd throw in a facile comment to match yours).

Better to have 'mates' than be the Leo Sayer of political punditry. I think you dropped your harmonica by the way.

Peter (not verified) said:

Wed, 2007-12-05 21:18

Regionalism is fine - the problem is that the regions we have at the moment are mostly non-sensical. - Who on earth considers himself to be a "North-Westerner!

Yorkshire and London aside, none of them are based on distinct regional identities - see my post (linked) for some suggestions to make them more attractive.

Gareth (Brighton) (not verified) said:

Fri, 2007-12-07 19:28

I don't think Peter has learned much from this exchange, but if there is one thing I would like him to take away and consider it would be this passage:

For all their supposedly good intentions it is a fundamental weakness of the regionalists’ argument that they seek to deny national government, and constitutional recognition of nationhood, to the people of England; to see England alone amongst the historic nations of Europe without its own national government.

It is one thing to argue for regionalism, but to argue that the nation of England should be denied national government because of it is quite another.

Go tell the French, Spanish, Germans, Scottish... that they can't have national governments. I'll bring you some grapes.

Don Beadle (not verified) said:

Wed, 2007-12-05 18:28

Quite simply breaking England into regions to be equivalent to devolution to Scotland is impossible as no one would suggest that each region could be given the power to enact primary legislation on all the matters that have been devolved to Scotland.

Anybody proposing regionalisation as a solution for England should be challenged with this.

CEP News Blog » Blog Archive » Required (not verified) said:

Wed, 2007-12-05 12:34

[...] News Blog » Blog Archive » Required Reading on Scottish MPs and Devolution for EnglandRegionalism would emasculate England « OurKingdom on That Question of SovereigntyBarnett looks Doomed, will the Union Follow? « The Secret [...]

Tally (not verified) said:

Wed, 2007-12-05 12:25

MP's have made early day motions

calling for an English Parliament as Frank Field has done and others calling for Gordon Brown to revoke his oath to the scottish constitutional to make Scotland's interests his paramount concern, EDM 266.

Others MP's have called for an English National anthem and a public holiday for St George's Day.

All recent polls show the demand for an English Parliament is rising, but the Campaign for English regions regroups? If Wales and Scotland were independent today, they would still be trying to carve England up tomorrow.

Of course they will not attempt to do it democratically with referenda, just the usual sneaky under hand way they always operate by stealth.

In the spirit of Frederick Forsyth | Little Man in (not verified) said:

Wed, 2007-12-05 11:50

[...] the spirit of Frederick Forsyth I respond to the regionalists over at Our [...]

Frances Lade (not verified) said:

Wed, 2007-12-05 11:56

I have sent the following to the Independent

Dear Sirs,

If , as Liberal Democrat Councillor Peter Arnold claims, there is no England then, by definition, there are no English. What a sophisticated method of ethnic cleansing, doesn’t get your hands dirty at all!

secretperson (not verified) said:

Wed, 2007-12-05 17:16

Peter Davidson - you ask

“How is it that an elected Regional Assembly in any of the English Regions (outside London) represents an unwanted extra tier of governance but an English Parliament (which could then apparently decide to create lower tiers of governance at the Regional level) does not?”

The simple answer is that Regional Governments would exist with the current UK Government set up, an English Parliament would in effect replace the Commons, maybe we'd reform the Lords as a federal Chamber. Regions are an extra tier, English Parliament replaces an existing tier.

If an English parliament wanted to create regional assemblies in the same way, the expensive extra tier arguments would still hold.

Gareth Young (Brighton) (not verified) said:

Wed, 2007-12-05 16:48

In answer to your specific question: “Why is the concept of English Regional Devolution now less popular and the idea of an English Parliament now more popular that was previously the case”

There's no easy answer to that, there are many reasons.

Prescott admitted that "No one wants the equivalent of the Scottish parliament for the English regions" so I suspect that people are wise to the fact that they are being fobbed off with something less.

There's a Eurosceptic element that sees regionalisation as a device to integrate us further into the EU - the 'Europe of the Regions'.

There's a growing English nationalism, a national consiousness that demands political recognition that regions simply cannot fulfil.

There's also a mistrust of politicians; they want regional assemblies, therefore regional assemblies must be useless. I think the opposite may be working in favour of the Campaign for an English parliament; we see a cabinet packed with Scots - and now a Scottish PM - who are all set against an English parliament, so the devil in us says 'we want an English parliament'.

The main reason (I think) is that we now have a population that is much more constitutionally literate than it was back then. People didn't really understand the negative consequences that devolution to Scotland and Wales would have on England, at least by comparison, if they were aware of devolution at all. And they didn't understand the negative consequences of regional government. They were easily persuaded by false decentralising arguments. Bitter experience has shown them that regionalisation is a form of centralisation because it has concentrated local powers in regional centres, who are in the thrall of their masters at Westminster.

Actually people want their services delivered by locally accountable politicians, not someone 200 miles away in Bristol or Oxford or Newcastle.

andy newman (not verified) said:

Wed, 2007-12-05 14:06

Yet the interesting thing is that regsional inequality, (what used to be known as the NOrth-South divide) has grown under the last ten years of a Labour government.

My own view is that as a substitute for an English parliament, then Regional assemblies are a non-starter.

But if we did have an independent England, or even an English parliament within the UK, then the way the British government has privilaged the South East of England in economic policy would be an issue we should take up, and we do need to find a way of giving the English regions more say in policy making.

Gareth Young (Brighton) (not verified) said:

Wed, 2007-12-05 16:22

Peter, Let's try and find some common ground. Do you concede, as a starting point, that the people of England have a sovereign right to decide how they are governed?

If so how should we act upon that right?

secretperson (not verified) said:

Thu, 2007-12-06 17:09

Peter - you mock my mathematical skills. I just used a different definition of tier to you.

Lords + Commons + region + counties = 4

Federal (UK) + England + counties = 3

See it's all about definitions. In my idea the Federal parliament is only a second chamber (and I'd go for full English independence, but that wasn't your question). OK maybe tiers was a bad choice of words, number of politicians maybe. Gareth has adressed the words 'wanted/unwanted'.

You define nations by size, I define them by identity.

Whatever will be will be though, and it looks like Englishness will win through against regions on current trends.

Paul Kingsnorth (not verified) said:

Fri, 2007-12-07 17:18

Peter - two 'small' points:

"it is in fact the Welsh and their Cornish cousins who have a stronger claim to what is now called England. The word Wales is derived from the old English/Norse term for outsider. They were the indigenous peoples of England, not the Anglo-Saxon invaders who pushed them out."

Er ... history lesson needed I fear. The Celts were not 'indigenous' to Britain . They were invaders from central Europe. They brought with them iron weapons and a highly militarised, stratified society, which wiped out the genuinely original inhabitants - the neolithic builders of Stonehenge et al. Celtic nationalists find this all rather unfortunate so it doesn't get mentioned a lot. Rather ruins the narrative about the Evil English.

"the outpourings from English Nationalist circles are permeated with persistent references to the apparent right of the English to this, that and the other as though all English people want exactly the same thing - they don’t."

This is where you really give the game away - as do so many other proponents of regionalisation. Whoever said the English people 'all want the same thing'? Duh. Of course they don't. neither do the people os Scotland, Northumberland, Cornwall, Pakistan, the USA ... yet it's only the English whose national identity you deride on this basis. if you want to argue that all nation states are false - fine. What you can't do is argue that others are valid but England isn't. Throughout this thread you've made dozens of attempts to do just this and all your arguments - England's too big; not everyone agrees on everything; England = equality - have been shot down.

As Gareth said, it is useful to find out where the regionalists are really coming from though. I was in two minds about the regions before I read this thread, but you've really turned me against them. So at least that was useful.

Peter Davidson (not verified) said:

Thu, 2007-12-06 17:58

Gareth

Obviously I meant word order which you have rearranged to soften the impact of your answer.

UK + England + Region = 3 tiers, that's one more than we have at present.

Richard (not verified) said:

Thu, 2007-12-06 13:32

“How is it that an elected Regional Assembly in any of the English Regions represents an unwanted extra tier of governance but an English Parliament does not?”

As a Welshman I am wary of intruding on this one, but isn't the central point here this: following devolution the UK government is in fact the English government in many areas of policy. But at present that 'English government' is elected by the UK-wide electorate and is made of (some) non-English MPs. Or in other words, an English parliament and government do not represent an extra tier. The tier is already there, it's just not accountable to the right people...

CEP News Blog » Blog Archive » Abolishi (not verified) said:

Thu, 2007-12-06 10:55

[...] David B. Wildgoose on British National Anthem not inclusiveRae on Wendy’s House of CardsRegionalism would emasculate England « OurKingdom on That Question of SovereigntyBarnett looks Doomed, will the Union Follow? « The Secret [...]

hyam (not verified) said:

Wed, 2007-12-05 13:30

That letter in The Independent is indeed a disgrace and shocking, insofar as the writer bizarrely denies that existence of an English nation. Insofar as, despite living in Northern England the writer emphatically doesn't identify himself as being English but rather as a Northumbrian, the letter should be noted and is indeed relevant to this debate.

Peter Davidson (not verified) said:

Thu, 2007-12-06 11:00

secretperson: “Peter Davidson - you ask

How is it that an elected Regional Assembly in any of the English Regions (outside London) represents an unwanted extra tier of governance but an English Parliament (which could then apparently decide to create lower tiers of governance at the Regional level) does not?”

The simple answer is that Regional Governments would exist with the current UK Government set up, an English Parliament would in effect replace the Commons, maybe we’d reform the Lords as a federal Chamber. Regions are an extra tier, English Parliament replaces an existing tier.”

Let’s just look at that answer in closer detail

Regional Governments would exist with the current UK Government set up, an English Parliament would in effect replace the Commons

My calculation indicates that UK + England + Region = 3 tiers

Wherever did you study mathematics; the “Make it up as you go along” school?

Don Beadle: “Quite simply breaking England into regions to be equivalent to devolution to Scotland is impossible as no one would suggest that each region could be given the power to enact primary legislation on all the matters that have been devolved to Scotland.”

Why not Don? Seems like you are living proof of my claim that those campaigning for an English Parliament are quite happy to impose upon the peripheral English Regions, precisely the same kind of power centralisation that they suffer under the current Westminster based UK administration, with only one very small difference; it’ will be called England

Tally: “There are none so deaf as those who will not hear”

With the backing of the government and the bbc, the CFER was beaten soundly by non political citizen activists in the North East of England. Come on have another go you mug.”

Tally – have you even read my article “The real story of Prescott’s regions.

It would appear that you really are quite deaf because you are repeating the same mantra again (along with many others here)

Peter: Regionalism is fine - the problem is that the regions we have at the moment are mostly non-sensical. - Who on earth considers himself to be a “North-Westerner!

Peter - I would be the first to agree with you that the majority of “official” English Regional names are totally anonymous. There is also legitimate scope for a debate about the shape of the official English Regional map; see my comments elsewhere. I would prefer names with more historical resonance – i.e. East Anglia instead of East England and Northumbria instead of NE. England. Don’t blame me for the actions of someone in the government with no imagination

Maria Scott: “The North East, the only area allowed a referendum, voted 78% “NO” to regionalisation. So why are you blethering on about “English Regions”? The only people canvassed did not want them.”

Maria – You also seem to have completely ignored the evidence presented in my article “The real story of Prescott’s regions posted elsewhere on Our Kingdom. Offer people sham devolution and they will reject it. Offer them real transfer of competency and you will receive a very different response!

Maria Scott: “England must decide its own system of internal governance, via its own democratically elected national English Parliament.”

Simple question Maria - why?

Please don’t bang on about the English as though they constitute a single indivisible social and political entity – they don’t! Please give me other credible reasons

Maria Scott “You really are an undemocratic man, aren’t you, Mr Davidson?”

Maria - Please read my comments elsewhere on this site. It seems as though you are quite prepared to form an opinion based on half a story?

Philip Hosking (not verified) said:

Thu, 2007-12-06 11:39

Regionalism would emasculate centralist, Tory, europhobic England, thats true, but it would empower the regions of England far more than an English parliament ever could.

Deep decentralisation of England would have a much more profound and positive effect on peoples day to day lives than an EP, but still, people don't always know whats best for themselves.

Paul Kingsnorth (not verified) said:

Fri, 2007-12-07 17:21

'Equality' should have read 'inequality' of course.

Looking forward to hearing the next reason why my nation and identity are non-existent though.

secretperson (not verified) said:

Fri, 2007-12-07 17:31

Well this has been a fun argument Peter. You believe people will follow your view point, I believe otherwise, it is likely neither of our exact views will come to pass.

"not fixated on some illusory notion of English homgeneity [sic]"

I am not. Common identity means a sense of belonging to a place, not that we have to be all the same.

Yes the idea that Nation and State should be the same is a relatively recent idea, and one that I agree with. Although England has over 1000 years of existence as one entity in roughly todays borders. Yes the Anglo-Saxons invaded and kicked out the Welsh and Cornish. Your history is spot on. To set borders like that, choosing an arbitary period of history would be wrong, as you say. However modern identity should not be ignored.

If the Scanians feel an identity and wanted their own state I would support them. Let us hope other national groups don't have to suffer "conquest, subjugation and ethnic cleansing" in the drive to build a new European "nation" (tongue in cheek).

I really think I might have to give up on this soon, we both obviously believe strongly in our opinions I don't think either will change the others mind, but it has been interesting and you have made me think.

Gareth Young (Brighton) (not verified) said:

Wed, 2007-12-05 14:11

Many regionalists have a deep antipathy towards the concept of England as a nation, for some it is a pathological hatred.

Some of them feel the same way about Britain.

Many favour a 'European nation' which is a strange choice of replacement for smaller historically meaningful nations.

Gareth Young (Brighton) (not verified) said:

Thu, 2007-12-06 13:02

Peter Davidson has an agenda that is slightly wider than just England:

Until recently the UK stood alone, an island of centralism, in a sea of regionalization. Yet, a victory in the upcoming referendum would create more regional bodies. The transformation towards a decentralized model could make the idea of a federal Europe more appealing to the UK electorate. The thought being that if it works at home why not try it at the European level. This, and a possible entry into the Eurozone, would make it less likely for the United Kingdom to be the traditional "awkward partner" when radical institutional reforms of the EU are considered.

Although Polls have consistently shown an appetite for regionalism, especially in the three regions now being balloted, the electorate remains apathetic and ignorant of the complex issues involved. In this information void NO campaigners are eroding the general public goodwill that is in support of devolution. A NO vote would not only stop the English devolution process dead but also stall the UK's European integration.

England is the 'inconvenient truth' - too large to fit into the Europe of the Regions model that Peter Davidson has spent so long campaigning for.

Gareth Young (Brighton) (not verified) said:

Wed, 2007-12-05 14:49

"How is it that an elected Regional Assembly in any of the English Regions (outside London) represents an unwanted extra tier of governance but an English Parliament (which could then apparently decide to create lower tiers of governance at the Regional level) does not?"

Because regional assemblies are unwanted and English government is wanted. Simple answer to a simple question.

I doubt very much that any English parliament would recreate the bureaucratic and unwanted tier of government that Prescott tried to establish. Big waste of taxpayers' money that it was. Devolution within England would be to the lowest level possible and regional committees (perhaps with a regional list voting system) would be used for the occasional issue that required a regional response.

It would, of course, be left open to the people as to how England was regionalised - areas that they identified with would be a start.

Tally (not verified) said:

Wed, 2007-12-05 19:23

'There are none so deaf as those who will not hear"

With the backing of the government and the bbc, the CFER was beaten soundly by non political citizen activists in the North East of England. Come on have another go you mug.

Peter Davidson (not verified) said:

Thu, 2007-12-06 14:08

Gareth

I see you've called up reinforcements. I suppose when you look like you’re losing the intellectual argument, it is always sound policy to ask a few "mates" to come along and back you up; if you shout loud enough, you can always drown out any counter argument; a tried and trusted strategy.

In the spirit of constructive dialogue - even though you have consistently dodged my original question about England as an extra tier of governance - I will attempt to address your statement about common ground

Gareth Young: "Peter, Let’s try and find some common ground. Do you concede, as a starting point, that the people of England have a sovereign right to decide how they are governed?

If so how should we act upon that right?"

I concede that all people (and in the context of this discussion that means the entire UK population) have the right to decide how they are governed.

Furthermore, people living in Scotland, Wales, N. Ireland and Greater London have all, in varying degrees, been granted a greater level of self-determination in that respect by dint of the devolved institutions of accountable governance now functioning in each respective territory. I also believe that the people living in the rest of England should be granted similarly increased levels of self-determination.

However, as both you and I know, the entire process of devolution is dictated, in the UK as virtually everywhere else in the world, by a top-down principle of power dispersal

The actual word devolution implies control from above. I think it was Enoch Powell (a very clever if misguided individual) who said "Power devolved is power retained" This axiom is never more true than in the UK where a Whitehall based government machinery will only relinquish access to effective political power (in very small doses) when they are literally forced to by circumstances they can no longer control.

I have explained elsewhere how I envisage a process of real devolution (I prefer the word transfer) of power to semi-autonomous institutions of sub-National governance occuring. I would also be happy to subject that transfer process to the ultimate test of democratic legitimacy, a referendum, provided it was put forward in the correct manner, decided by an informed electorate in a head to head contest between two equivalent constitutional options.

However, that process is not going to happen in the way you and I might want. Perhaps the most credible way forward is to establish a Constitutional Convention to decide the future form of governance for the entire UK. That is certainly the preferred option of the democratic renewal campaign group I belong to. It is also in part what this entire OUR KINGDOM site is about. Informing the UK electorate about the options available to them.

The CEP's stance in this respect is disingenuous. They want to stack the cards in favour of an English Parliament solution by creating an English Constitutional Convention and packing it with their small band of very vocal supporters. How democratic is that?

Yes, I do have a wider agenda, if by that you mean that I believe the future of people residing on this side of La Manche are bound intrinsically to the fortunes of those living elsewhere on mainland Europe. Last time I looked in an atlas the UK was in Europe!

Peter Davidson (not verified) said:

Wed, 2007-12-05 14:31

andy newman: “But if we did have an independent England, or even an English parliament within the UK, then the way the British government has privilaged the South East of England in economic policy would be an issue we should take up, and we do need to find a way of giving the English regions more say in policy making.”

Andy – independent from what?

I’ll ask again a question posed in an earlier but related discussion

“How is it that an elected Regional Assembly in any of the English Regions (outside London) represents an unwanted extra tier of governance but an English Parliament (which could then apparently decide to create lower tiers of governance at the Regional level) does not? Is someone moving the goalposts to suit their argument?”

Gareth (Brighton) (not verified) said:

Thu, 2007-12-06 20:21

EU + UK + England + Regions = 4 tiers.

In or out of the EU, in or out of the UK, England should have a parliament. That's the bottom line. If that means getting rid of one, or all of the 'extra' tiers then that's fine by me.

Regions would be my pick because there's no need for them and if we are to have administrative regionalism (and I don't accept that we should) it can be made accountable through either the English or UK Parliament - the creation of another parliament gives us scope to do that without denying England national government.

You won't like this because you want lots of little mini-government throughout the EU, but very few people in England share your vision so it makes it and you a bit of a political irrelevance - though I concede that you have some powerful allies.

We've already wasted enough time and money on regionalisation, it's set the prospect of democracy and good governance in England back years, it's been detrimental to local democracy, and I hold people like you responsible.

You say that you have no objection to a convention and referendum.

You didn't seem too bothered by that in 2004 when you were all over the internet imploring people to vote for Prescott's toothless assemblies.

Thanks God that the good people of the North East of England - including members of my own family - saw through you, Prescott and chums and sent you all packing. At least Prescott has the good grace to bow his head in shame.

Hopefully next time we will be permitted a national debate on the matter instead of being rail-roaded into something we don't want.

I'll give you credit though, when I posted this I honestly didn't expect someone to come on and argue for the abolition of nation states. At least you are more honest than Prescott and the Campaign for the English Regions - they always leave that bit unsaid because they realise their views are repellent to the English public. .

Maria Scott (not verified) said:

Wed, 2007-12-05 23:23

Peter Davidson wrote: "As I have explained elsewhere (see the comments flowing from my article) I would be more than happy for the English Electorate to have a real choice in this matter. That plebiscite could be conducted simultaneously across all English Regions and thus by default across England as a whole."

The North East, the only area allowed a referendum, voted 78% "NO" to regionalisation. So why are you blethering on about "English Regions"? The only people canvassed did not want them.

England must decide its own system of internal governance, via its own democratically elected national English Parliament. To allow the UK Parliament, with all its non-representative MPs, to decide England's future is far too centralised and undemocratic.

You really are an undemocratic man, aren't you, Mr Davidson? It is not up to you or the Government to simply abolish one of the British nations just because its size doesn't suit you. And please don't claim to be concerned for the disadvantaged - the Barnett Formula and health apartheid already disadvantage the WHOLE of England enough.

Gareth (Brighton) (not verified) said:

Fri, 2007-12-07 19:38

The fact is that English Nationalists have no intention of devolving or transferring significant power.

I do. I want to see significant devolved powers below national level, but I want to see that happen under the jurisdiction of an English Parliament with the English people sovereign. I won't let it happen in the manner or the way that you and Prescott wanted it to happen.

We can't have people whose primary interest is Europe or the unity of the United Kingdom breaking up England so fit a pre-existing constitutional plan. The English should decide how they wish to be governed conscious of the wider consequences for Britain and the EU but with a constitutional sovereignty that allows them to make their own decisions for good or bad.

Peter Davidson (not verified) said:

Wed, 2007-12-05 16:49

Gareth,

Still dodging my original question I see

As I have explained elsewhere (see the comments flowing from my article) I would be more than happy for the English Electorate to have a real choice in this matter. That plebiscite could be conducted simultaneously across all English Regions and thus by default across England as a whole.

However, the embedded Whitehall centralising culture I keep going on about is likely to frustrate such an opportunity.

You also know very well that polling data taken subsequent to the 2004 period all shows stronger support for an English Parliament for precisely the reasons I have highlighted, the implications of the reasoning I have provided you are, of course, choosing to ignore.

You see, unlike you I don't try and dodge facts that don't support my argument. I think I know the reasons why support for an English Parliament has increased but my explanation is inconvenient for your campaign to acknowledge.

Offer people sham devolution and they will reject it, offer them real transfer of competency and you'll receive a very different response!

Fred Forsythe (Not the) (not verified) said:

Wed, 2007-12-05 15:40

These fools are building up a resentment that will spark once a militant leader grabs the English.

We all know where that leads, there are and have been sufficient examples to make us head for the army surplus stores for sandbags and tin hats.

Or is that ammonium nitrate.

Eve (not verified) said:

Wed, 2007-12-05 15:00

What a ridiculous letter from Peter Arnold. Maybe he could tell us how Northumbria , but not England, can still exist as an entity despite the arrival of all the Scots, Welsh, Irish and other Europeans. Or is he arguing that none of them have settled in Northumbria, leaving the population homogeneous and 'pure', and therefore 'deserving' of self-governance? If England is a mongrel nation then Britain which includes England + others must be to, as must Europe which encompasses mongrel England, pure Scotland/Wales/Ireland + others, yet he has no trouble identifying with those. Get back to Slytherin tower Peter-the-Pure; the English population are sick of this racist nonsense.

secretperson (not verified) said:

Fri, 2007-12-07 17:55

Paul Kingsnorth - to be fair to Peter he really does seem to believe that all nation states are invalid.

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