Wisdom of Welsh parking obscured by context of devolution
Lee Waters (Cardiff): The decision of the Coalition Welsh Assembly Government to scrap car parking charges at some hospitals from April has provoked an intemperate debate. “New NHS apartheid as free hospital parking to be rolled out in Wales… but not England” the Daily Mail cried.
No sense in “subsidising car parks” with NHS money, said English Health Minister Ben Bradshaw:
We don’t think it makes sense to spend money that’s currently being spent on patient care - getting people treated faster and better - on subsidising car parks. If that’s what Scotland and Wales want to do, that’s one of the joys of devolution. We’re spending the money on improving patient care.
In Wales, you have to wait much longer for your operation; you have to wait much longer in A&E. You’re not going to enjoy the extended GP opening hours that patients in England are soon going to be enjoying. Those are the priorities that we think the English patients are more interested in, rather than subsidising anyone who wants to park in a hospital car park for free.
Then the Welsh Health Minister Edwina Hart entered the fray with this:
sounds like sour grapes from the Department of Health because they’ve been probably having a lot of flak because they haven’t looked at these issues themselves.
The Welsh media rightly sensed a row. The story then became about an unseemly spat between Cardiff and London: “the scalpels are out” declared the BBC’s Welsh Political Editor. Just as the debate in Wales was turning into an inquiring one about the wisdom of the policy, Ben Bradshaw’s intervention shifted the spotlight onto ‘London interference.’
How is the Welsh NHS going to absorb the £5.4 Million loss of revenue? How is making it more attractive to take your car to an NHS site consistent with the Assembly’s targets to cut carbon emissions? Isn’t there some spin here given that four of the largest hospitals are exempt due to deals with private contactors and 50% of hospitals offer free parking anyway?
These are the questions that were beginning to emerge, and far from being a populist move the reaction on the radio phone-in programmes was revealing a very mixed response to the announcement. But this debate has been cut short because of an ill-considered intervention that allowed the story to become about the man from Whitehall knowing best.
Filed under: Devolution, Wales
If the Welsh are as incompetent as ‘the British’ then they are perhaps scrapping car-parking fees to save themselves money.
I think this is great news, as long as - of course - commuters are kept out of hospital carparks and the needy allowed in them.
As for this not occurring in England (or Scotland!), then English people need to complain to their MPs and stop blaming the Welsh for doing what’s right for Wales.
The carbon taxes are inherent unfair, as they punish the poor.
Ray,
Who’s blaming the Welsh? Not even the Daily Mail as far as I could see. And what are they being blamed for?
I think the term “NHS apartheid” is not a positive one. Read between the lines… Scots keep on getting blamed for voting for fairer policies, which Westminster will not implement for England (or sometimes Wales)
I think you’re wrong, it’s not the Scots or Welsh that are being blamed for health apartheid (and you’d be happy with that phrase if you had lung-cancer within England’s borders) it’s the UK government.
If England had its own government then we could choose to take what decisions we wanted to and any blame for the consequences would lie squarely with ourselves.
If you have a racist government that provides for greater social spending for certain people because they are Scottish, then I blame the government, not the Scots for spending it.
No doubt, the devolved governments in Wales and Scotland are implementing some progressive policies which benefit ordinary people.
Like toque says, given the chance, we’d have an English government under pressure to do the same.
There is a certain economic and health logic to free parking. Consider this: sick people in hospital are cheered by relatives and friends visiting - it keeps them going and helps them recover. If relatives and friends have to fork out pounds each time they go, they may be forced to visit less frequently, and so the sick person is left alone in hospital feeling glum and taking longer to recover and thus longer to be discharged from hospital.
“If you have a racist government that provides for greater social spending for certain people because they are Scottish, then I blame the government, not the Scots for spending it.”
Erm, you are WAY WAY off the mark here.
There is no racism, since Scots living in England get the same deal as English living in England, and English living in Scotland get the same deal as Scots living in Scotland.
The big problem here, of course, is a government which is not serving the health interests of people living in England, because it is incredibly right wing.
They can’t very well discriminate openly on the grounds of national identity in a given territory, so they do so constitutionally and by the slight of the Chancellor’s hand.
In my opinion they are racist. Or at best Anglophobic.
Erm, I’ll say it again. The differences are based on WHERE PEOPLE LIVE not on their race or ethnicity etc.
An English(wo)man living in Wales gets the same as a Welsh(wo)man.
So? Say it as often as you like.
Nations are based on national identity and ethnicity, both grounds for racism.
And this government has favoured one nation above all.
At the moment Wales are discussing Wales becoming the same as Scotland, law making powers and tax revenue powers, we have talk about drilling for Oil off the Welsh cost as the Oil is now more expensive the Oil looks a better deal.
I think since New Labour has been in power Wales are now closer to that important devolution.
Ray Bell - this may be true of parking fees, but it is not true of tuition fees for example. An English student living in Scotland and studying at a Scottish university will have to pay fees (other EU nations don’t!)
Apparently a plan to charge Scottish residents more to go to a theatre in Berwick counts as indirect discrimination, this doesn’t sound any different.
We don’t have any recourse to law because the discrimination is territorial, so it’s a moot point really. History will be their judge.
But the territories do conform to ethnic and national boundaries, so in my view this is discrimination.
Well Gareth a spokesman for the CRE Scotland on the theatre thing seemed to say that territorial discrimination can be classed as indirect discrimination if it is likely to negatively affect a particular racial group simply through numbers. And there are test cases for anti-English discrimination coming under the race relations act.
From <a href=”http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/yourrights/equalityanddiscrimination/race/pages/whatformsdoesracialdiscriminationtake.aspx”The Equality and Human Rights Commission:
“As England and Scotland were once separate nations, the English and the Scots have separate national origins and therefore the RRA does cover discrimination between them”
And forms of indirect discrimination are:
1. On grounds of colour or nationality:
* can only be met by a considerably smaller proportion of people from a particular racial group
* which is to the detriment of a person from that group because he or she cannot meet it
* the requirement or condition cannot be justified on non-racial grounds.
2. On grounds of race, ethnic or national origin
* puts or would put people of the same race or ethnic or national origins at a particular disadvantage when compared with others
* puts a person of that race or ethnic or national origin at that disadvantage
* cannot be shown to be a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.
Do you think we’d have grounds to sue?
“Nations are based on national identity and ethnicity, both grounds for racism.”
They may well be, but if I live in England, and you live in Scotland, you get the same as everyone else there, so this is IRRELEVANT. if English people (as opposed to people living in England) were denied it, that would be racist. But I am afraid that this is Westminster’s fault, not that of the Scots or Welsh, and to blame this on them, is in fact, racist.
Civilised countries look after their sick, poor and elderly. Does yours?
Talking of discrimination, why do pensioners in Scotland get the same heating allowances as those in the south of England? I’m sure you’re aware that the climate is uniform throughout the UK.
“An English student living in Scotland and studying at a Scottish university will have to pay fees (other EU nations don’t!)”
This is nothing whatsoever to do with the Scottish Government. It’s Westminster. Funnily enough, Welsh and Northern Irish students have to pay fees too.Did you forget about them?
“And this government has favoured one nation above all.”
Not the Cornish, obviously…
English people living in Scotland, get the same as me. English people living in Wales, get the same as the Welsh. Comprende?
Elect a better government.
“Elect a better government.”
Ah, we inherit them nowadays - this one was left to us by Tony Bliar…
“Civilised countries look after their sick, poor and elderly. Does yours?”
“Elect a better government.”
There is no English government to elect, I’m sure you’ll be happy to pretend that the British government is the English government though to get round that particular difficulty.
The Scottish government did increase fees for English (sorry students from England) to stop fee refugees rushing over the border. Can we blame them for that? I’m sure you’d manage to blame us if it was the other way round even though there is no English government.
Ray,
As I said, it would be illegal for them to discriminate in a given territory. The EU, however, upholds the right of the UK Government to discriminate across internal national boundaries. That’s how they get away with lavishing funding for progressive policies in Scotland whilst denying the English access to the same drugs, residential care, and tertiary education.
I’ll remind you that this Government was imposed upon the English by succession from a previous Government that did not get the plurality of the vote in England.
Yes they discriminate; against the Cornish, but that doesn’t matter to Gareth or Sarah. They’d be happy to see the extinction of the Cornish sense of national identity, if they were open and honest that is.
No more Cornish fly in their perfect English soup.
To harp on about discrimination and ignore the Cornish is two faced: http://thecornishdemocrat.blogspot.com/2008/03/stop-abuse-of-power-in-britian.html
“There is no English government to elect, I’m sure you’ll be happy to pretend that the British government is the English government though to get round that particular difficulty.”
If you thought about this constructively, you might actually make this into an election issue, instead of blaming it on your neighbours.
I have no interest in taking England’s money, or oppressing it. I want independence. Independence for Scotland and Wales is something you should back too.
“The Scottish government did increase fees for English (sorry students from England) to stop fee refugees rushing over the border.”
Students from Northern Ireland and Wales are also affected. As are Scots who live in England. Or is your amnesia selective?
The Scottish Government cannot legislate for England, Northern Ireland or Wales. Anymore than the London Assembly can make plans for Birmingham.
“I’ll remind you that this Government was imposed upon the English by succession from a previous Government that did not get the plurality of the vote in England.”
Then why won’t you help Scotland and Wales on their way to independence? Problem solved for both of us.
“That’s how they get away with lavishing funding for progressive policies in Scotland whilst denying the English access to the same drugs, residential care, and tertiary education.”
Again, I’ll repeat it, people in England. Plenty of English people in Scotland benefit from the fact we actually look after the needy, instead of privatising all their interests.
It is indeed wrong to deny these things to people in England, but it is also borderline racist to complain that Scots and Welsh are out to get the English. Certainly not Scottish nationalists who have no interest in feeding off England.
p.s. Sarah, that question you’ve dodged several times - do you consider Monmouthshire English or Welsh?
Then why won’t you help Scotland and Wales on their way to independence? Problem solved for both of us.
I did. I voted SNP.
Philip that is disingenuous we English Nationalists may not be as interested in Cornish issues as you, but I am sure all of us support the right to self-determination.
Ray we do support Scottish independence (or at least many do). As England will be denied its say, the only way we will be free of the UK is for you, Wales, NI and yes, if they want, Cornwall to leave. I was well aware Welsh and NI students would have to pay fees if they wanted to study in Scotland (is it 3 years you have to live before being treated equally?), I just didn’t think it relevant to a Scots vs English discussion.
What about Welsh people being able to receive free prescriptions in English hospitals and the Welsh commissioners refusing to pay the full cost?
Please take your independence, then under EU law (if we choose to remain in) we will have to have the same fee treatment as Scottish students and can refuse treatment to the Welsh, unless their political masters pay the money they have promised.
“Please take your independence, then under EU law (if we choose to remain in) we will have to have the same fee treatment as Scottish students and can refuse treatment to the Welsh, unless their political masters pay the money they have promised.”
Better still, why not allow the Welsh to control their own affairs!!!
That is what I was trying to imply Ray. We are on the same side here.
This thread has strayed a long way from its topic! (Wot no moderator?) — Scrapping hospital car-park charges. As an economist I’d say it’s economically illiterate idea, and will only subsidise the well-off car driver. Subsidiary malign effects of scrapping charges will be the loss of control in hospital carparks with theft, vandalism, over-staying and improper use. In future carparking space will be rationed (because it is not unlimited) by congestion, not price. Hence it will become virtually impossible to find a space, no matter how worthy your medical condition or visitor status.
A perverse effect of this might be to encourage people to take the bus. (Buses serve all hospitals). Perhaps even better would be for hospitals to reduce the number of parking space, The space freed up could be used for other more patient-friendly activities, like parks or gardens.
But a shoot-from-the-hip policy by our Assembly leaves you wondering whether they have thought any of this through.
“Subsidiary malign effects of scrapping charges will be the loss of control in hospital carparks with theft, vandalism, over-staying and improper use.”
The answer to this is simple. Every genuine visitor and patient should receive a chit to prove that they are not some kind of commuter etc. It should not be “free for all”, but free for those who need it.
As for theft and vandalism, I gather this already happens.
I am not sure if any of the other correspondents are old enough to remember the ‘good old days’ when parking at hospitals was free of charge? Then, of course came the Thatcher years, with meagre increases in health resources which did not keep pace with needs. Hence the introduction of ‘efficiency savings’. Of course, most of those savings were not really savings at all - either cost shifting (as in car parking charges), or making healthcare less safe (contracting out and reducing cleaning making way for MRSA).
So in Wales, as the resource situation has improved somewhat, we have taken the option of getting back to status quo (as we have already done in re-instating free prescriptions for all).
I suspect also that some of the correspondents who seem to regard parking as an optional extra live in London, and not rural Wales. Yes, all hospitals may be served by buses, but if your home village has a once a day bus service that is not necessarily very helpful.
Yes, free parking may well cause problems in congestion, and there will be a need for policing to ensure that the parking is not abused. In rural communities however, cars are essential, and hospital planners need to ensure that suffcient parking space is available for those who need them.